Thieves
Posted: 11 December 2008 10:14 AM   [ Ignore ]
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A few of you have made remarks on another board about how Thieves are so incredibly painful to play that they are used only for corpse running, if at all.

I was wondering, could you expand on (a) what makes thieves so undesireable, and (b) what would make them a viable choice?

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Posted: 11 December 2008 10:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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I’m gonna guess the whine hasn’t changed over the years.

Theives:
They suck at melee combat
Halflings have glass skulls (that’s for Alazar i think)
If you miss your ambush you need to move on.
All the cool NPC have Anti-Theif specials (Damn that Belly!!!!! - That is most of the mud smile )

Players who are not Theives:
Thieves Suck!
They Stole my silver
They steal my kills
Their a pk class
I can’t play when so and so is on cause he\she can kill me in one shot

After a while it all kinda ran together and I stopped listening, but I think that’s pretty close smile

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Posted: 11 December 2008 12:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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While it’s still true that some of the biggest NPCs have some ability to avoid Thief tricks (like Behr knowing when an alc is poisoned, and not drinking it), this is a small fraction of available kills - and even in terms of big-XP guys, it’s a small proportion.

My impression was that new skills had been added to help thieves with melee - some ankle thing, and some follow-up attacks.

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Posted: 11 December 2008 02:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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Abbot made some changes last year I think. 

I haven’t played thief in years so maybe they have changed but I can recall the inconsitency was a pain the ass.  As an example, I would nearly sever a head with an ambuch, then kill it by destroying the body.

Or I would fumble an attack on a 0 XP NPC and have my wep busted or get severly injured myself.  I would think if I got 0 XP for an NPC, I should have 0 chance of fumbling an attack.

My 2 cents on the whole thing, maybe it has gotten better since the last time I played.

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Posted: 11 December 2008 07:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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I’ll boil it down into simple points.

1. Horrid defense. Even in good gear, a 400 exp mob will tear a thief up while weaving.

2. Inconsistent class ability. Even with good weapon skills, ambush is generally poor. Even on the same 400 exp mobs, a good+ ambush will still result in a lot of combat (see 1). Ambush also seems to get rather hefty penalties from being drunk. Failed ambushes should also -never- allow the mob to damage the weapon.

3. Poison costs. This can get even further out of hand if you take into consideration 1 for the ambush weapon, 1 for the throw weapon and 1 more for the ankle etc weapon. I don’t even need to get into throwing the poison itself…

4. Ability to get their “good” gear (see 1,7,2). I can’t claim this is impossible because I just haven’t played my thief in a long time. When you consider that stealing jewelry is possible, but not likely, and even if they get the twins’ locket, the light it produces hurts them (see 5). I’d highly enjoy watching a thief kill chancel.

5. Penalized by light but only one way to play in the dark. Just give a small bonus for darkness, but don’t penalize thief skills in light.

6. Annoyance factor. The anklebite ability should work much easier. You should select the weapons to use with the ability, first goes into mainhand and second goes into offhand. The last argument will be the monster or if left blank to attack your focus target.

7. Health. They have far too little.

I think that about sums it up.
Anon

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Posted: 11 December 2008 07:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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I need to think more about this before I make a detailed post.  However, I agree with the points made by Anon.  One thing I was thinking about - would it be possible to reinstute “slit” or something similar for thieves against NPCs only?  Something that will hit with much much much more frequency.  It’s been a long time since slit was in the game, but my recollection is that slit was 100%.

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Posted: 12 December 2008 06:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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This is good - keep it coming.  I would definitely be down for advocating a beef-up to Ambush, or even a return to Slit (against NPCs only.)

The Chancel is a good comment. There shouldn’t be NPCs in the game that a given class just can’t win against. Imagine, for example, if there was just NO way for a monk to kill the 4-headed dragon - that’s just wrong. (Having said that, we wizards do like the exchange of risk and reward. So hit-and-run strategies, that carry little risk, are not cool with us.)

Keep it coming!

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Posted: 12 December 2008 06:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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IMO I don’t think that theory is sound Belly. There are numerous NPC in the game for each class where it is impossible or so difficult it’s not worth killing. Druids i would think have the most that are in this category where as Mages (what ever the blasting class is called) would have the least.

This is a fact with all games\muds and this is why we party so we can overcome the deficiencies of being a solo player.

Just my 2 cents on that, back to bashing thieves

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Posted: 15 December 2008 07:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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Thiefs are skill class.. with that being said, im not quite sure how i got mine aristoed.. anyways these are all good points, and nothing, is impossible for a thief to kill (to my knowlage) I once saw spence kill the grand druid solo.. granted it took a while, and i forget the $$$ figure.. but thiefs have.. or should have more money then any other class.. includeing monks who really should be poor considering they are monks and dont need possissons.. but thiefs are a pain in the ass to play solo.. i rarly fight anything i miss a bush on.

tsth would be a good person to get info about this from, he has the best most recent knowlage i think

slit is in the game, but its the end of the ankle bite chain.. which is only usable with cutting 1h weapons

bottom line, thiefs have poor defense, poor offence (minus ambush and throwing posion) but i think the point in that was that thiefs can insta kill alot of things, maybe not chancel.

**end line

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Posted: 15 December 2008 07:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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I was watching Allier tonight, and it caught my attention that failing special attacks for a thief almost invariably both costs mana and causes you - and sometimes your weapon - damage. That’s got to be annoying.

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Posted: 06 January 2009 07:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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short answer to your last post belly, and i think there will be 100% agreement on this, yes that does get VERY annoying

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cool mad

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Posted: 17 January 2009 07:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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Belegost - 11 December 2008 10:14 AM

A few of you have made remarks on another board about how Thieves are so incredibly painful to play that they are used only for corpse running, if at all.

I was wondering, could you expand on (a) what makes thieves so undesireable, and (b) what would make them a viable choice?

Well since MD is down right now, I guess Galraith is doomed to never do q7 --EVER!

My last post was probably August 2007, but this topic concerns me. See, when Belly starts asking for input, it means he’s gonna do something about it.

Trouble is, he’s asking the wrong people and talkin about the wrong CLASS!

There is nothing wrong with thieves. Granted, I have NOT tried Abbot’s new thelp skills (ankle, axil, slit, fleetfoot) and that secret area in my Western home has had me green with envy because I think that area is so cool; kudos to whoever coded it (in the rugged best city ever.)

The “few” who have “complained” about thieves just don’t got what it takes, I’m afraid to say. No, I’m not sorry at all; for all of those who fell victim to the end of my bladed weapons to your head, that’s just part of the game. Thieves added flare, life, color, and excitement to the game.

(BTW, IMHO, the island “aristo” orcs shouldn’t be the place for 1000+ XP kills. Giving the level 25+ aristos a easy cop out if you ask me. But that’s for another topic.)

Tsathoggua told me over beers that he hated the idea of a “1 button insta-kill”. He thought it cheesy, and cheap.

Yet, he has a high level ranking thief; something he hasn’t had in over, oh, what, 3-4 versions of MD now? Um hm. Suuuuuuuuuure. Uh huh.

I’m all for upgrades for thief. I’m not hating at all on thieves. I stand behind the idea all the way Belly. On just one condition. You give me back Genjuro. smile

$pence

P.S. The class you should be asking about is Druid; save us, please!

P.S.S. Read Malal’s post under topid Druid. He has valid points.

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Alithras Moonson is gonna rip your guts. <666>

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Posted: 18 February 2009 11:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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> Message number 49, written by Psychology at Feb 19
Subject: Thief Post

Hey all, I have been playing a lot recently, both solo and in parties with
various different classes such as monk, thief, and cleric. It has been a lot of
fun, but Falanore (my brother) and I have been talking a lot about the
playstyle of thief, the utility of the skills, and basically just thief stuff
in general, we have come up with a few interesting ideas that might reduce some
of the frustrating things about thief and make the class more fun to play,
without making it more powerful or changing the style it already has. These
ideas are kind of our thoughts on how we can take what thief is already like
and just modify a little bit to make use of some skills that aren’t used a
whole lot, while also increasing the fun factor.

The first thing we discussed was the ability Slit, along with Anklebite and
Axillaryslash. We also talked about Assail and then we came up with some ideas.
There are a few things we don’t really like about the Slit skill set:
1) It takes a really long time to do the three skills, therefore you do a lot
lower damage than you think, even on successful hits, due to melee hits not
being done and poison not being applied, especially when you miss and have to
restart the combo.
2) It costs a lot of mana, minimum of 50 mana for a successful slit, which
fairly often will miss, thus requiring 100 mana to get a successful slit.
3) Only hits legs, arms, and head, while many players prefer to ambush the
body.
4) Can’t be used with 2h weapons (on slit) though many players really like the
style of 2h weapons and therefore don’t get to use the skill.
5) Can’t be used on non-humanoids. We feel that the highest level requirement
skill (also highest mana costing skill) should not be limited to only one type
of npc, even though it is quite commonly fought.

Our thoughts on these issues resulted in a fairly interesting idea that might
be worth consideration. We propose that the three skills (Anklebite,
Axillaryslash and Slit) be taken out of the thelp skill list, while replacing
Slit with a new skill: Assault. Here are the features associated with the new
skill Assault
1) Assault would be ultimately the same as Assail, in the fact that it would do
the same thing, but with a few quirks.
2) Assault would cost 30 mana, oppose to the 15 mana that Assail costs.
3) Assault would have the same chance to hit as Assail does in a party, even if
you are fighting alone.
4) Assault would have a small chance (maybe 15% or so) to also perform Slit on
top of the Assail attack (And would be performable with a 2h weapon, while also
affecting non-humanoids as assail does).
5) Assault would have a small chance (maybe 15% of so) to also perform
Axillaryslash on top of the Assail attack (Axillaryslash would be changed to
damage the body instead of the arms).
6) Assault would have a slightly large chance (maybe 20% or so) to also perform
Anklebite on top of the Assail attack (Anklebite would be renamed Gash and
would hit a random limb instead of the legs, therefore making it useable on
non-humanoids as the modified Slit and Axillaryslash could, and as Assail
already does).

We feel that this change would simply take the existing skills
Anklebite/Axillaryslash/Slit, and put them in a different skill that would be
more fun to use (due to the randomness) while also making them be used more
often (we rarely even use Slit or the other two skills with the current
playstyle of thief) without making the skills more powerful due to the high
mana cost and relatively low chance of them occuring alongside the Assail
attack on the Assault. It would also be really fun every once in a blue moon
when 2 or 3 of the effects happened on the same Assault (since they all have a
small chance to simultaneously occur on top of the Assail attack in the
Assault).

We also would like to point out that we think combining the Assail skill with
the set of three makes logical sense in our minds due to the fact that Assail
and the set of three are almost identical in function, other than the fact that
one is a random limb attack, while the other is set to attack certain limbs.

We realized that the removal of Anklebite, Axillaryslash and Slit would leave 3
empty slots in the skill list (2 if Assault replaces Slit), so we came up with
a few more ideas to help make up for this. Anklebite currently is achieved at
level 14, we were thinking that this skill could be replaced with a new skill
named Hemorrhage, here is what Hemorrhage would entail:
1) Hemorrhage would cost 0 mana and would be a passive skill that does not need
to be turned on or activated in any way.
2) Hemorrhage would have a small chance to occur on any normal melee attack on
an opponent (with a sharp weapon).
3) Hemorrhage would simply be something along the lines of “After striking
(enemy’s name), you seize the opportunity to rip open a nasty wound in their
(limb attacked).”
4) Hemorrhage would cause the enemy to take a small amount of bleeding damage
similar to the bleed caused by an ambush or assail, in the way that you would
have to wait a few seconds before it would damage them. It would be a minor
amount of damage, similar to a typical melee hit, so that it would not be an
overpowered skill in any way and also because it might happen fairly often if
you are hitting the opponent a lot.
5) Hemorrhage could have a small chance (maybe 10% or so) to either rip a
dreadful gash in the opponent, causing them to bleed several times, or to rip
small gashes in several random limbs.

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Posted: 18 February 2009 11:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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Our second thought was to come up with a skill that could replace the empty
slot left in the skill list where Axillaryslash used to be. We thought of
several ideas and came up with one that seemed to fit well. Dash would be a
skill that could replace Axillaryslash on the skill list, and would have these
characteristics:
1) Dash would work similar to Weave and Evade, which are currently learned at
level 5, while Dash would be learned at level 16 to replace Axillaryslash.
2) Dash would cost 30 mana, which is double the cost of Weave and Evade, though
it would give the same defensive effect as the typical Evade, and would last
the same amount of time.
3) Dash would only be usable by the skilled thieves above level 16, who are
dextrous enough that they can move with such agility that they can still
maintain the same combat ability that they had before beginning to Dash,
therefore a high level thief could have the same defensive value of Evade
without losing the offense as they do with Evade.

One last skill we talked about a lot was the skill Fleetfoot. It seems that we
rarely find the opportunity to take advantage of this skill in the mechanics
that it currently is designed around. We came up with a few ideas that might
make this skill more fun and useful for thief.
1) Fleetfoot should work as it does currently but should be usable even while
drunk out of your mind.
2) The more drunk you are, the more mental energy a thief must spend in order
to keep up with their Fleetfoot maneuvering! Perhaps a very drunk thief would
need to spend as much as 15-20 mana for upkeep (as oppose to 1 when completely
sober, as is currently) in order to keep their feet moving while drunk!

I hope that you guys like the ideas and thoughts that Falanore and I have come
up with, we certainly spent a lot of time in contemplation of how we could
improve the enjoyment of the thief class for ourselves and others, without
specifically increasing the power or changing the playstyle of the class. We
really think that these ideas would serve well in making the class fun and we
hope that you guys will think so too! I would like to say in advance that I am
probably throwing unrealistic numbers and percentages for the skills I am
proposing in this post, but if they are considered for implementation, I’m sure
the wizards will know what numbers would be balanced and not make the skills
overpowered! =)

Message number: 49
> Message number 50, written by Psychology at Feb 19
Subject: Thief Post 2

I ran out of room on the last post so here is the last idea we had, Sharpen.
1) Sharpen would only be usable on poisoned weapons, and the weapons would lose
the effect when the poison fades from the weapons, that way thieves cannot
sharpen the weapons of other players.
2) Sharpen would slightly increase both the chance that a weapon would
Hemorrhage an opponent and the chance that a weapon would apply the poison into
the opponent.
3) This could perhaps be a talent learned at level 17 in between Dash and
Fleetfoot.

Sorry for the monster posts, if I have given you a headache from all the
reading. Hope you like the ideas and give them some thought/feedback if you
would like to.

P.S. Obviously I would expect a wizard to find a balanced amount of damage for
these skills in order to prevent them from being too powerful, if they are
considered.

Message number: 50
>

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Posted: 18 February 2009 11:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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Lynis - 15 December 2008 07:10 AM

Thiefs are skill class.. with that being said, im not quite sure how i got mine aristoed.. anyways these are all good points, and nothing, is impossible for a thief to kill (to my knowlage) I once saw spence kill the grand druid solo.. granted it took a while, and i forget the $$$ figure.. but thiefs have.. or should have more money then any other class.. includeing monks who really should be poor considering they are monks and dont need possissons.. but thiefs are a pain in the ass to play solo.. i rarly fight anything i miss a bush on.

tsth would be a good person to get info about this from, he has the best most recent knowlage i think

slit is in the game, but its the end of the ankle bite chain.. which is only usable with cutting 1h weapons

bottom line, thiefs have poor defense, poor offence (minus ambush and throwing posion) but i think the point in that was that thiefs can insta kill alot of things, maybe not chancel.

**end line

Sorry but I must say that thieves are definitely not having more money than monks, I go at least negative 10k silver every boot I play because poisons are quite expensive on top of alcohol.

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